FSTDT - Two For One

[desertvixen]

 
 The last one was getting a little long, and I wanted to give this person (I think female) special attention. 

 Judgemental Rape Counselor

I was doing counseling with victims of sexual assault at a secular agency. Yes, I understand that what a woman wears has nothing to do with "traitional" rape (which is a matter of control and/or anger, not sex), but after talking to some of these women, I got to wondering what ever happened to common sense. Young women would go out with guys wearing clothing that left little or nothing to the imagination, have quite a few drinks, go back to the guy's place....then call us to complain that they'd been "assaulted!" Hello? You dress like a streetwalker, both of you get drunk....what did you THINK he was asking you to his apartment for - a Bible study?

While I grant that getting drunk with someone you don't know well is not smart, rape is not a punishment for stupidity.  This person has also obviously not experienced the date that goes Really Bad, and ends up with one party trying to force the other to have sex.

I suggested to the head of the organization that we start a City-wide campaign, along the lines of, "If you want to be treated like a lady, try dressing like one." There IS a campaign with billboards and signs on the sides of buses about waiting until marriage before having sex (from a different agency); I wanted to take it a step further. Guess what? Virtually ALL the (female) counselors had a fit when I suggested such a thing; they claimed they had a "right" to wear anything they want! I tried the tact of, "Doesn't it bother you to have your husbands looking at all these half-naked girls?", to which I was told, "If my husband can't control himself, that's HIS problem!"

Yay for those counselors!  Women should have the right to wear what they feel like wearing, regardless of what others think about it (assuming, of course, that no laws or dress codes are being violated).  Besides, who gets to define "ladylike"? 

And God forbid we expect the men to control themselves.  Really, sometimes when I read these arguments, I need to be reminded why feminists are the ones who hate men because we expect them to, well, act like grownups.

I really couldn't continue on there - they were "helping" girls after the fact, but doing nothing to prevent them being assaulted in the first place - it was like pulling out a band-aid after telling someone it was OK to stick her hand in a chainsaw. (And let me reiterate, because I always get a lot of flak on this - what a woman wears has NOTHING to do with traditional rape; I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Thanks for adding to the feeling of so many victims of date rape that what happened to them wasn't "really rape" because it was someone they knew, or because they had a moment of poor judgment.

No means No.  I sort of feel bad for the guy if she changes her mind at the last second, but blue balls will not kill you.  And I fail to understand why this person thinks "traditional rape" is different from the others - they're all about power.

Fashion Advice

You see, the problem isn't just with "worldly" women. I attended a special program for adult students at a conservative Christian college. I needed a few more electives, so thought a course in Popular Culture would be fun. My final presentation was on fashion, with an emphasis on overly-provocative clothing (including for small children - there's actually a "look" called "prostitot") and the WOMEN (all claiming to be "Christian", mind you) had a fit! Once again I heard the cry of, "We have the RIGHT to wear anything we want!" I tried to explain the effect on men, who are visual creatures, and told them they were causing these men to sin, but they didn't want to listen; I made several enemies that day! Ironically, after the class almost all of the MEN came up to me and thanked me, saying it was nice to see someone understands!

Kind of beats the same drum.  The poor little men, visual creatures.  We're leading them to sin.  It's all our fault.

Basically my take is: if you want to dress modest (for whatever reason), then please feel free.  I know there is at least one person on the f-list who prefers to dress modestly for religious reasons.  She, however, gets what many of these people do not - it is HER choice to dress modestly, and she isn't trying to force her choice on anyone else.

DV

Comments

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

Someone with views like that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near rape victims. Blaming the victim just has to stop. Men as a group do seem to be more visual in what attracts them, but the ones I know are all perfectly capable of controlling themselves and they know the difference between admiring a woman and raping her. I do think that people should think about what their choices in clothing say to others though. Some situations are more appropriate for skimpy or otherwise suggestive clothing than others. Rape should never be the consequence of wearing the "wrong" clothing though and I don't particularly believe that clothing is the cause of most rape. People need to stop beating on the drum of blaming the way women dress for rape.

Switching to another of your points, I do believe there are differences between some date rape and traditional rape. I'm not sure that date rape really is always about the man trying to control the woman as such. I think it is sometimes about the man being too out of control of himself to believe the woman isn't interested. Unfortunately I also think that some claims of date rape are really about the woman changing her mind after the fact. False claims just make things worse for the people who really are raped and make no mistake about it, real date rape is every bit as much rape as other forms of rape. In some ways it is worse because it often involves someone who was trusted to some extent rather than a stranger.

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

I grant that there are differences. The victim is probably feeling different emotions and definitely the people around her are going to be feeling different emotions.

My issue was that this person was trying to make it "She dressed like a slut and drank with him, then went to his apartment - she got what she deserved".

If at any point, either partner decides no and expresses that, then continuing is wrong.

DV

Catching up on old threads...

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately I also think that some claims of date rape are really about the woman changing her mind after the fact.

That is unfortunate. Especially as it turned your thoughtful and sane comment into something that more or less reads as Rape is awful. Really awful. just terrible. Oooh, isn't it awful? (by the way, women lie) Rape is awful. Really awful. Just terrible....

You didn't mean to do that, right? You're not really that person who will say all the right stuff but then find a way to excuse guys if you happen to like them, right?

Because I don't think you are that person, so maybe you want to rethink how you express yourself a bit?

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I certainly didn't mean to do that and I really don't think I did. I reread what I said and I really don't see anything that says it is okay for guys to rape women because some women lie. It seems that what I read in what I wrote and what you read don't match though. Sorry about that.

Does admitting that there are some women who lie negate everything else? I think it is unrealistic to act like the woman is always telling thet the truth. Women are motivated to lie by various factors. (So are men, just usually not about being raped.) I don't excuse people who use force against other people or people who lie. Both are wrong and can cause serious harm in a variety of ways. (Women who lie about being raped are harming the people they accuse but I think they're also harming the cause of women in general as well as the majority of women who claim to have been raped and really were too.) Women who make false claims really make me angry. I guess that wasn't clear in what I said earlier. I do stand by my comments that I don't think all rape happens for exactly the same reasons.

I think date rape can happen for more complex and varied reasons than stanger rape. The only time I've ever come close to having a man try to have sex with me when I said no was really not about force. It was about alcohol, his inability to control himself and a total disbelief that I could possibly not want to have sex. He really thought I must want what he wanted despite the fact that I'd told him I wasn't interested and that I don't have sex with married men. Luckily, I didn't have a hard time making him realize he needed to stop when he started doing things that weren't appropriate. If I'd been 20 at the time rather than over 40, I don't know if I'd have had enough experience with life to deal with the situation as successfully.

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with your statement is we don't talk about other crimes this way.

When talking about the things which lead to theft, battery, arson, etc., we don't even think to say, "but some people lie about this," as a comment about the difficulties in seeing to it they are reduced.

Given the way society treats rape (woman is presumed to have, "led him on," unless 1: she didn't get hurt resisting and 2: didn't know him, 3: wasn't Miss Polly Pureheart) "changing her mind in the morning" isn't likely to lead to charges of rape.

It might lead to a buyer's remorse accuasation, but not often. From my (limited, and male) experience, admitting one was raped; even by force, is often difficult. Lots more date rape is written off as, "damn that was a bad idea" than bad ideas are converted to date rape.

TK

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with your statement is we don't talk about other crimes this way.

Yes. As it happens, I know the StasCan numbers on Malicious Reporting, which is Cop for "lying about having been a victim of sexual assault[1] or any other crime".

Malicious Reporting rates for sexual assault are statistically indistinguishable from Malicious Reporting rates for crimes against persons in general, i.e. 1.5 percent give or take.

Rates of Feeling Compelled To Mention Malicious Reporting In Discussions of Rape, OTOH, run around 100 percent, give or take.

What's wrong with this rhetorical device picture?


[1] There is no crime called 'rape' in Canada. There is sexual assault, with degrees. Forced Vaginal Intercourse is "aggravated sexual assault" with possible compounding factors that can run it higher.

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about all of this. Society does tend to treat rape victims badly. However, that simply doesn't change the fact that there are people who lie. What's worse is that at least some of the bad treatment happens because people have lied in the past. People lie about theft, battery and assorted other crimes too. The same type of backlash doesn't seem to result from those lies though. There's definitely backlash every time a woman makes false claims and they generate publicity. That being said, whether there are a few lies or not does not change the fact that all of those crimes are bad and not the fault of the victims, which was the original point being discussed. Crimes are the fault of the criminals, not the victims or anyone else. I think this particular bit is getting to the point of being out of its orginal context in the discussion though, so it is probably time to stop filling desert-vixan's journal with it especially since I don't see us disagreeing on anything anyway and it has nothing to do with the majority of my original reply.

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

We are disagreeing on something, and something substantive...

The relevance of false reporting of date rape.

That move the question from how the women are raped, to how the men are mistreated, and (at the risk of being rude in DV's journal) that's bullshit.

It excuses the men who rape, and gives cover to those who might rape.

It is not relevant, and derailing.

Now, lest I go too far, I will leave the topic.

TK

Re: Catching up on old threads...

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

it has nothing to do with the majority of my original reply.

That arsenic-tinged ratshit in the coffee? Totally irrelevant. Doesn't affect the flavour AT ALL.

Right.

[starwatcher]

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I'm not sure that date rape really is always about the man trying to control the woman as such. I think it is sometimes about the man being too out of control of himself to believe the woman isn't interested.

No, that's an excuse they just want us to believe. Say a man gets really pissed at his boss; is he likely to haul off and punch him in the nose? No, of course not; he knows that [a] his boss has power over him and [b] it might affect his job. Therefore, he manages to control himself even under the scourge of strong emotion.

Now, he's on a date, and he's under the scourge of strong emotion of being really horny. But somehow, he doesn't manage to control himself; he ignores his date's "No," convinces himself that she's just 'teasing' or whatever, and forces sex on her. That's rape.

The reason he "can't control himself" in the second situation is because now he's the one with the power; chances are that he's bigger and stronger than his date, and he uses it against her.

Simplifying,

[a] A man has lesser power in situation, controls himself.

[b] A man has more power in situation, doesn't bother to control himself and abuses that power.

There is absolutely no reason that he cannot exercise as much mental/physical control in situation B as in situation B. And that's why we don't accept "he couldn't control himself"; it's a crock of shit that has gotten too many rapists released as "not guilty" to go out and do it again.

(Hi, DV; dropped over from Pecunium's LJ.)
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[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I both agree and disagree with you. How does saying there are different reasons for date rape equate to saying that it isn't wrong? I do believe I said repeatedly that rape is always wrong.

That being said, I just plain don't believe that there is a single explanation every time a man ends up having sex with a woman who doesn't want it. Saying that all rape is about control is over-simplifying it in my opinion as well as not matching my actual experience with men. A man's inability to control himself (whether sober or after having a few drinks) does not in any way shape or form excuse his behavior. It just gives it a somewhat different reason. When something happens for a different reason, the things you need to do to prevent it from happening again can be different too. The man that I had a bad experience with was a friend who just didn't believe that I wasn't interested and a few beers (or maybe more than a few - I'm only really sure about one drink) made him think that acting on his desires would be a good thing. Once I got it through his head that I wanted nothing to do with his desires, he stopped. Getting that through his head was harder than it should have been. He was being an idiot, not actually trying to control me. If I'd been much younger and less experienced I think the result might still have been sex that he wanted and I didn't want though, and that's rape and wrong. I think the motivation involved there was significantly different from the motivation of a man who goes out and grabs a woman off the streets and rapes her forcibly. Both are wrong though.

[starwatcher]

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How does saying there are different reasons for date rape equate to saying that it isn't wrong?

??? My response did not in any way suggest that you had said rape isn't wrong.

A man's inability to control himself (whether sober or after having a few drinks) does not in any way shape or form excuse his behavior. It just gives it a somewhat different reason.

Then why bring it up? The thing is, there are far too many times that "he just couldn't control himself" lets a rapist off the hook. What difference does the reason make?

He was being an idiot, not actually trying to control me.

You say tomato, I say to-mah-to. He was trying to use your body without your explicit permission; that's control.

The things, many people act in certain ways without analyzing the personal aspect. He's not saying, "Ha! I'm bigger and I can control her." It's just that he has an intrinsic feeling of being 'on top of the world' in most of his dealings with women, and it takes fierce denial on her part to knock him off his mountaintop. But just because he doesn't consciously recognize the control, doesn't mean he isn't acting from that "vibe".

I think the motivation involved there was significantly different from the motivation of a man who goes out and grabs a woman off the streets and rapes her forcibly.

Again, what difference does motivation make? The woman is equally traumatized. The thing is, making any kind of excuses -- "It's wrong, but..." or "I can understand how..." leads far too many people to believe that some rapes are "lesser". The reasoning becomes -- If some rapes are "lesser", maybe this rape wasn't really all that bad. If this rape wasn't really all that bad, maybe all rape is no big deal. If rape is no big deal, maybe it isn't real; it's just women changing their mind.

And that leads to the situation we have now, where less than 10% of rape cases that come to trial (forget about the vast majority that aren't even prosecuted) result in conviction of the rapist. If we don't draw a hard line, nothing will ever change.
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[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

Then why bring it up? The thing is, there are far too many times that "he just couldn't control himself" lets a rapist off the hook. What difference does the reason make?

My comments on that were made specifically in response to the original comment saying all rape, including date rape was about control. I simply disagreed with that. The motivation makes no difference to the rightness or wrongness of the actions. It does make a difference when trying to figure out how to prevent such rapes from happening.

Failing to be able to control yourself is a serious problem in my opinion. It isn't an excuse for anything. Rather the opposite. It is a sign that you are seriously in need of help and maybe shouldn't be allowed loose in the world of adults.

[starwatcher]

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My comments on that were made specifically in response to the original comment saying all rape, including date rape was about control.

I think the problem here may be about differing meanings of "control". You seem to be using it to mean a pre-planned, deliberate taking over of another person's agency and body -- which is a valid definition.

But another, equally valid type of "control" is to use your actions to manipulate another's reactions, and it's not necessarily conscious. EG, watch groups of people walking down the sidewalk, approaching each other. Who maintains an unswerving path, and who steps aside? The first person has, through body language, social expectations, whatever, exercised control over the second person.

In that sense, date rape IS about control -- the rapist is taking the woman's control of her own body away from her. Maybe he didn't plan it, maybe it wasn't his intention, but that's the end result.

Examine these statements, both yours.

date rape . . . is sometimes about the man being too out of control of himself to believe the woman isn't interested.

and

Failing to be able to control yourself is a serious problem in my opinion. It isn't an excuse for anything.

That first one sounds like you're making an excuse for certain "types" of rape. You may not mean it that way, but that's how it comes across. Would you say a man was too out of control to avoid stealing a wallet, or too out of control to avoid robbing a bank?

It does make a difference when trying to figure out how to prevent such rapes from happening.

That is a red flag to many feminists. Rapes don't "happen"; men rape. Men are able to exercise self-control is other aspects of their lives but, all of a sudden, when they think sex is "owed" them, they just "lose control". No matter how you phrase it, it's an excuse and a crock of shit, and we mustn't let them try to pull the wool over our eyes like that.
.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I think the problem here may be about differing meanings of "control"

I think you might have that right. I think the same goes for the phrase "out of control" too. We seem to be using it differently.

Would you say a man was too out of control to avoid stealing a wallet, or too out of control to avoid robbing a bank?

I wouldn't phrase it quite that way, but I don't think I phrased what I said about men raping women they know because they're out of control quite that way either. I would definitely say that a lot of theft, especially small theft like wallets, happens because the perpetrators are out of control. Lack of impulse control and a need for quick gratification leads to a lot of crime of various sorts. I'm not saying they can't control themselves because some outside force prevented them from behaving. I'm saying they don't have control over their own actions because they don't use their brains to think with or are immature or intoxicated in some way or otherwise malformed in their personalities. The force involved is inside them, not outside. The out of control part is placing blame on them, not excusing them. I hope I'm being more clear here, but given how tired I am now, maybe not.

Men are able to exercise self-control is other aspects of their lives but, all of a sudden, when they think sex is "owed" them, they just "lose control".

But see, I don't think that all rapes have to do with men thinking sex is owed to them and that's not quite the kind of loss of control I was talking about. I was talking more about "men" who haven't learned the adult ability to stop and think about what they're doing and act responsibly. I don't think the men in question actually do control themselves properly in all other aspects of their lives. Losing control when it comes to having sex has much worse results than losing control when it comes to buying stuff or driving fast or whatever other things they might let themselves go over. Children often have that kind of lack of self-control. Adults shouldn't be lacking that way, but some are. Some people are adults in age but not in their behavior. How they act where sex is concerned is an extension of how they act about other things. They aren't suddenly losing control. They lack control overall. Women aren't immune to that problem either even though the results for them aren't usually rape.

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the party!

DV