FSTDT - Two For One

[desertvixen]

 
 The last one was getting a little long, and I wanted to give this person (I think female) special attention. 

 Judgemental Rape Counselor

I was doing counseling with victims of sexual assault at a secular agency. Yes, I understand that what a woman wears has nothing to do with "traitional" rape (which is a matter of control and/or anger, not sex), but after talking to some of these women, I got to wondering what ever happened to common sense. Young women would go out with guys wearing clothing that left little or nothing to the imagination, have quite a few drinks, go back to the guy's place....then call us to complain that they'd been "assaulted!" Hello? You dress like a streetwalker, both of you get drunk....what did you THINK he was asking you to his apartment for - a Bible study?

While I grant that getting drunk with someone you don't know well is not smart, rape is not a punishment for stupidity.  This person has also obviously not experienced the date that goes Really Bad, and ends up with one party trying to force the other to have sex.

I suggested to the head of the organization that we start a City-wide campaign, along the lines of, "If you want to be treated like a lady, try dressing like one." There IS a campaign with billboards and signs on the sides of buses about waiting until marriage before having sex (from a different agency); I wanted to take it a step further. Guess what? Virtually ALL the (female) counselors had a fit when I suggested such a thing; they claimed they had a "right" to wear anything they want! I tried the tact of, "Doesn't it bother you to have your husbands looking at all these half-naked girls?", to which I was told, "If my husband can't control himself, that's HIS problem!"

Yay for those counselors!  Women should have the right to wear what they feel like wearing, regardless of what others think about it (assuming, of course, that no laws or dress codes are being violated).  Besides, who gets to define "ladylike"? 

And God forbid we expect the men to control themselves.  Really, sometimes when I read these arguments, I need to be reminded why feminists are the ones who hate men because we expect them to, well, act like grownups.

I really couldn't continue on there - they were "helping" girls after the fact, but doing nothing to prevent them being assaulted in the first place - it was like pulling out a band-aid after telling someone it was OK to stick her hand in a chainsaw. (And let me reiterate, because I always get a lot of flak on this - what a woman wears has NOTHING to do with traditional rape; I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Thanks for adding to the feeling of so many victims of date rape that what happened to them wasn't "really rape" because it was someone they knew, or because they had a moment of poor judgment.

No means No.  I sort of feel bad for the guy if she changes her mind at the last second, but blue balls will not kill you.  And I fail to understand why this person thinks "traditional rape" is different from the others - they're all about power.

Fashion Advice

You see, the problem isn't just with "worldly" women. I attended a special program for adult students at a conservative Christian college. I needed a few more electives, so thought a course in Popular Culture would be fun. My final presentation was on fashion, with an emphasis on overly-provocative clothing (including for small children - there's actually a "look" called "prostitot") and the WOMEN (all claiming to be "Christian", mind you) had a fit! Once again I heard the cry of, "We have the RIGHT to wear anything we want!" I tried to explain the effect on men, who are visual creatures, and told them they were causing these men to sin, but they didn't want to listen; I made several enemies that day! Ironically, after the class almost all of the MEN came up to me and thanked me, saying it was nice to see someone understands!

Kind of beats the same drum.  The poor little men, visual creatures.  We're leading them to sin.  It's all our fault.

Basically my take is: if you want to dress modest (for whatever reason), then please feel free.  I know there is at least one person on the f-list who prefers to dress modestly for religious reasons.  She, however, gets what many of these people do not - it is HER choice to dress modestly, and she isn't trying to force her choice on anyone else.

DV

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Aside from that, how insulting to the men that they're nothing but animals who can't control themselves.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

Oh good lord. I wonder if that person thinks that domestic violence is the fault of the victim. Is stupid like that inherited, or do they have to work that hard to be that dumb?

[cleverthylacine]

Yeah, and also? I've had idiots try and bug me when I was walking home at night in my floor length skirt and long-sleeved shirt. Modest dress decreases the amount of garbage in my life but it doesn't eliminate it because some men are just fucking assholes; dressing in revealing clothing does attract more of them, but that's just because they're unimaginative entitled asshats. They have rape in all those places where women wear burqas. Some people just don't get it. :)

[betray802.livejournal.com]

My pretty-much-everyday wear is a pair of jeans, and a T-shirt with as many X's in the size as I can get. I have a handful of 'fitted' shirts. (This is creating a huge problem with a friend back in VT who is trying to send me U. of VT clothes. Someone in the sizing department at the Bookstore needs their head checked. Their 'medium' is my 'too small')

I've had guys make passes at me while I'm wearing my Mag7 T-shirt, which goes down to my knees and has about as much shape as a flannel nightgown! The fact that they're usually the wrong side of my father's age is an added bonus.

I wore the dress I'd worn under my gown at my HS graduation to the Federation Ball at Con. It's hard to describe, it's knee-length, with a shoulder-height bodice and a strap thing that goes behind my neck. The two guys in my Trekkie club, who have become used to my T-shirt & Jeans look, did double-takes. Brian: "Who knew Amber was a babe?" I've known this clown ten years now.

(Last year's Ball was in a glorified walk-in closet, and it was dark. They couldn't really see the halter dress I was wearing. This year we were in the atrium.)

My sister wore my HS dress to one of her JROTC Military Balls. Little b*itch looked better in it than I did! I hate when she does that!

Is it hypocritical that I looked at some of the other girls at the Federation Ball and said to myself, "OMG, does your mother know you're out in public like that?"

Music of the Moment: Honky-Tonk Crowd by Rick Trevino

[daveamongus.livejournal.com]

While I grant that getting drunk with someone you don't know well is not smart, rape is not a punishment for stupidity.

This has stuck with me since yesterday when I read it... not because I disagree with it, but because I think it's interesting (and appalling) that society thinks there are acceptable punishments for stupidity, and that death is one of them. As are dismemberment and lousy elected officials. I've found myself withdrawing more and more from what passes for comedy these days because it essentially relies on one finding it hilarious to see stupidity, even if its the only example in a life otherwise characterized by intelligence and common sense, punished by death, maiming, or abject humiliation.

And lets not even get started on the idea of prison rape being an acceptable punishment for any sufficiently heinous crime.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

Someone with views like that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near rape victims. Blaming the victim just has to stop. Men as a group do seem to be more visual in what attracts them, but the ones I know are all perfectly capable of controlling themselves and they know the difference between admiring a woman and raping her. I do think that people should think about what their choices in clothing say to others though. Some situations are more appropriate for skimpy or otherwise suggestive clothing than others. Rape should never be the consequence of wearing the "wrong" clothing though and I don't particularly believe that clothing is the cause of most rape. People need to stop beating on the drum of blaming the way women dress for rape.

Switching to another of your points, I do believe there are differences between some date rape and traditional rape. I'm not sure that date rape really is always about the man trying to control the woman as such. I think it is sometimes about the man being too out of control of himself to believe the woman isn't interested. Unfortunately I also think that some claims of date rape are really about the woman changing her mind after the fact. False claims just make things worse for the people who really are raped and make no mistake about it, real date rape is every bit as much rape as other forms of rape. In some ways it is worse because it often involves someone who was trusted to some extent rather than a stranger.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

This is the part (of a lot of stuff which pisses me off most):

I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Boo fucking hoo.

Want to avoid a record like that... don't rape.

The last bit: Once again I heard the cry of, "We have the RIGHT to wear anything we want!" I tried to explain the effect on men, who are visual creatures, and told them they were causing these men to sin, but they didn't want to listen; I made several enemies that day! Ironically, after the class almost all of the MEN came up to me and thanked me, saying it was nice to see someone understands!

I am not impressed. It's not her job to keep me from the near occasion of sin. The last sentence, I am not surprised... she is giving the men permision to be assholes. It's not their fault they do bad things... the women drove them too it.

To be nasty... the assholes even have a rationale... They NEED to be nasty, in the interest of convincing women to dress modestly; so catcalls and the like are for the betterment of all.

Yech..

TK