Linked Wisdom from Marna

[desertvixen]

 From commodorified's journal, I present the following links:

Men Asking Repeatedly Is Not Women's Fault

This one comes with a side of "talking about how you'd beat the crap out of a rapist isn't actually useful or helpful".  One of the many off-shoots of the OSBP deal.  I'm working on my own post on that, but I'm also trying to get laundry done, so it may not happen tonight.

And, in a link that the fabulous commodorified proivided, synecdochic is talking about That Guy (and why he's such a problem).

DV (yes, I finally figured out how to get words for the links!)

Comments

Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

There is more going on with men in this than mere knee-jerk sexism.

I wrote a long and hopefully coherent comment back to this in my journal, but in short: it's sexism. Good, decent, kind men can be sexist as all get out. (see also: sexism is about being mistaken, not about being evil.) Argh; so much editing tonight. *blames pain pills*. It's just that when Good Kind Decent Men are seriously misinformed about gender and sex stuff, the results are extremely painful for BOTH parties.

Because in the dialectic on men, and privilege and power that I see written here and there, a great deal of ink (mostly virtual) seems to have been spilled on the necessity of men being "self-policing" That it comes in a form that doesn't dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s of P.C. speak, is pretty small beer...

Except ... it really, really really does not seem to be helping. It's not so much a matter of not dotting the i's and crossing the t's as not being in the right language at all.

If anything, it often seems to fuel the blame-the-victim thing, because the fact is that we're NOT, as a society, willing to really, systematically ENFORCE that kind of draconian thing on EVERY rapist. They hypothetical Evil Stranger, sure, but the 19-year old next door?

So we make excuses not to, and the end is a sort of venomous hypocrisy, where All Rapists Are Vile, but Not All Who Rape Are Called Rapists.

Rather than talking endlessly about what ought to happen to rapists, if we could just gently lead all of said Good Honest Guys to, say, step in when they see a guy crossing the FIRST line and say "Hey. Not cool. Back off of her." Because THAT helps.

Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?

[carbonelle.livejournal.com]

Good, decent, kind men can be sexist as all get out.

Can be, but usually aren't. And since they're "good, decent and kind" they warrant the benefit of the doubt. Especially since we have some seriously whack-job feminists running about claiming to Speak For All Women. One woman's "seriously misinformed" is another woman's "You SAID WHAT about Joss Whedon & his wife?" And that doesn't even begin to plumb the depths of heterophobia that reigns in the Academy.

I disagree about the "doesn't seem to be helping," by-the-by. When men have an enforced code of "manly men protect all women and children" from scum, it tends to mitigate the natural scum-factor within their sex. Even if, by "protect" all they can do is register disapproval when some yobbo starts spouting off in the locker room.

I also disagree that "we as a society," by which I mean, the general run of citizenry in the U.S. are quite willing to enforce that rule on EVERY rapist, even the 19-year-old next door.

Unfortunately, that well has been poisoned by, well, liars and opportunists: Tawana Brawley, the Duke University Lacross players, etc. and the people who make an excellent living off of victims, pseudo-victims and fraud. And then there's the contingent bent on denying agency to any women, by arguing that drunken hook-ups are rape. Sorry, if I choose to get drunk at a party full of drunken men; and end up having drunken sex with another drunkard: tant pis.

So not all Who Are Called Rapists, Rape.

Which is why I don't think guys are "endlessly talking about what ought to happen to rapists," merely that when the subject comes up (as it sometimes does) they react publicly with disdain, revulsion, and a gut-level desire to make sure the rapist comes to justice. Which would seem to be an excellent thing, and more likely to encourage men to do just what we want: which is when one of his peers crosses a line harrassing another woman--any woman--he says, "Hey. Not cool. Back off her."

Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

Even if, by "protect" all they can do is register disapproval when some yobbo starts spouting off in the locker room.

At least with the men I know, this one happens rather infrequently. A lot of times, no one wants to be the Guy With No Sense of Humor. But yes, it IS useful because it helps establish where the line is. I think the best thing I've heard on that one is to mentally replace the "chick" in the joke with your mother, your wife, or your daughter - and see if it's still funny.


I also disagree that "we as a society," by which I mean, the general run of citizenry in the U.S. are quite willing to enforce that rule on EVERY rapist, even the 19-year-old next door.

On this one, yes, we are going to have to disagree. Because a lot of times it is not getting enforced. A lot of times, even when the rape is caught on videotape, the victim is branded a Slut. A Whore. She Must Have Wanted It. She Didn't Say No. And Why Was She Wearing That Short Skirt, Anyway?

DV

Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?

[carbonelle.livejournal.com]

I think the best thing I've heard on that one is to mentally replace the "chick" in the joke with your mother, your wife, or your daughter - and see if it's still funny.

That's a very good one--have to remember it.