desertvixen (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
desertvixen) wrote2008-04-27 10:20 pm
desertvixen) wrote2008-04-27 10:20 pm
Entry tags:
Linked Wisdom from Marna
From
commodorified's journal, I present the following links:Men Asking Repeatedly Is Not Women's Fault
This one comes with a side of "talking about how you'd beat the crap out of a rapist isn't actually useful or helpful". One of the many off-shoots of the OSBP deal. I'm working on my own post on that, but I'm also trying to get laundry done, so it may not happen tonight.
And, in a link that the fabulous
commodorified proivided, synecdochic is talking about That Guy (and why he's such a problem).DV (yes, I finally figured out how to get words for the links!)
no subject
I'm going to email it to commodorified and let her decide whether to post it.
DV
The reply
But yes, he'll stay banned. I believe you that he's got any number of
fine features, but I can't be having with that sort of behaviour from
someone who hadn't even introduced himself yet.
DV
My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
I know that being a male doesn't allow me much say into the female side of this equation, but as someone who has helped more than one female who was... "put upon" shall we say (there were different circumstances with different women, ranging in method and result widely, so I can't say raped or assaulted per say) I fully agree that the most important thing is to figuratively and literally hold her hand while she tries to get back under control. I've made honey lemon tea for just such an occasion.
I respect any woman's agency in dealing with the situation, and will not overstep whatever bounds they choose to set, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to remove the offending party from the gene-pool by as much force as I can muster.
It's HER honor that has been impugned, and it is her decision what actions to take to get her life and psyche back into as much order as she can. Not mine. I will help every step of the way if she'll let me, or I will step aside and wait in the shadows if she doesn't want to even see another man.
What she decides to do about it does not change the fact that most males feel helpless if they can not perform some act or say something to improve the situation. I've heard it said recently that Women Feel, while Men Fix. If the best a man can do is make a cup of tea and provide a padded cotton surface (shoulders preferred) to cry on, he feels like he's not doing enough, even if it's helping her in ways she can't express.
She's able to let some of the emotion out, and has someone to hold on to that won't judge her or take her support away while she is feeling weak. She also has someone to cling to that is a male who won't hurt her, which can be absolutely critical if she's going to be able to trust men again.
Many men don't understand what effect that has, which is what leads to statements like wanting to kick the crap out of the offender. He wants to show he desires to do something to make her feel better and "fix" the problem, but hasn't put 2 and 2 together to ask her what she wants. Men feel that if they can get back at the one who hurt them or their loved ones, the hurt can subside. This is wrong, of course, but that hasn't stopped men throughout history from trying it.
It's also the first thing that comes to mind when a decent man hears about this sort of thing. He's hurt her, he needs to die. It's engraved on our minds from an early age. Protect those we perceive as weaker than us. If the male could not be there to protect her when it happened, he failed, but he can sure try to shut the barn door now that the horse is out.
I don't see it as incumbent on the female in question to explain how wrong that line of thinking or speech really is to any man, given that it's not about him at all right now, but it does need to be explained to him in a manner that he can understand. Usually, this involves a clue-by-four and a steaming pot of tea shoved in his hands to bring to the table, along with a written note that says "it's not about you, jackass".
That being said, I don't care who it is that tries to attack a woman or child that way. It could be my own brother, the best man from my wedding, some creepy stranger from three counties over, or even some famous figure. That sort of thing sure as HELL is not acceptable, society be damned. The fact that our current society does not punish these people harshly enough doesn't mean that I don't want them to be punished. It means that society is going downhill and needs to be changed.
Personally, I'm all for finding some dull metal object and heating it to an uncomfortable temperature before using it to remove the offender's manhood. That, however, is because I see him as a threat to other women as well, and he should be prevented from even being able to think about doing it again after due process of law, not because I feel that I have been wronged. Will I be the one to take the lighter to the butter knife and duct tape him to a mattress-less wire bed frame for vivisection? Probably not. Definitely not if she's not taken care of first. Would I lie in court to provide an alibi for the one who does? In a heartbeat.
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
Thanks for expressing what I thought as I read commodorified's post--I hadn't organized my thoughts on the matter (since, like you, I basically agree with her) but I did think: wait a minute! There is more going on with men in this than mere knee-jerk sexism.
Another thought: What about when those expressions are made, not so much to the rape-victim (though she might be "in the audience" so to speak,) But in general public? Is this a way of expressing the idea among men that rape simply isn't tolerated, that rapists are not "real men"TM, and that good, decent men won't tolerate them?
Because in the dialectic on men, and privalege and power that I see written here and there, a great deal of ink (mostly virtual) seems to have been spilled on the necessity of men being "self-policing" That it comes in a form that doesn't dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s of P.C. speak, is pretty small beer...
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
I wrote a long and hopefully coherent comment back to this in my journal, but in short: it's sexism. Good, decent, kind men can be sexist as all get out. (see also: sexism is about being mistaken, not about being evil.) Argh; so much editing tonight. *blames pain pills*. It's just that when Good Kind Decent Men are seriously misinformed about gender and sex stuff, the results are extremely painful for BOTH parties.
Because in the dialectic on men, and privilege and power that I see written here and there, a great deal of ink (mostly virtual) seems to have been spilled on the necessity of men being "self-policing" That it comes in a form that doesn't dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s of P.C. speak, is pretty small beer...
Except ... it really, really really does not seem to be helping. It's not so much a matter of not dotting the i's and crossing the t's as not being in the right language at all.
If anything, it often seems to fuel the blame-the-victim thing, because the fact is that we're NOT, as a society, willing to really, systematically ENFORCE that kind of draconian thing on EVERY rapist. They hypothetical Evil Stranger, sure, but the 19-year old next door?
So we make excuses not to, and the end is a sort of venomous hypocrisy, where All Rapists Are Vile, but Not All Who Rape Are Called Rapists.
Rather than talking endlessly about what ought to happen to rapists, if we could just gently lead all of said Good Honest Guys to, say, step in when they see a guy crossing the FIRST line and say "Hey. Not cool. Back off of her." Because THAT helps.
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
Can be, but usually aren't. And since they're "good, decent and kind" they warrant the benefit of the doubt. Especially since we have some seriously whack-job feminists running about claiming to Speak For All Women. One woman's "seriously misinformed" is another woman's "You SAID WHAT about Joss Whedon & his wife?" And that doesn't even begin to plumb the depths of heterophobia that reigns in the Academy.
I disagree about the "doesn't seem to be helping," by-the-by. When men have an enforced code of "manly men protect all women and children" from scum, it tends to mitigate the natural scum-factor within their sex. Even if, by "protect" all they can do is register disapproval when some yobbo starts spouting off in the locker room.
I also disagree that "we as a society," by which I mean, the general run of citizenry in the U.S. are quite willing to enforce that rule on EVERY rapist, even the 19-year-old next door.
Unfortunately, that well has been poisoned by, well, liars and opportunists: Tawana Brawley, the Duke University Lacross players, etc. and the people who make an excellent living off of victims, pseudo-victims and fraud. And then there's the contingent bent on denying agency to any women, by arguing that drunken hook-ups are rape. Sorry, if I choose to get drunk at a party full of drunken men; and end up having drunken sex with another drunkard: tant pis.
So not all Who Are Called Rapists, Rape.
Which is why I don't think guys are "endlessly talking about what ought to happen to rapists," merely that when the subject comes up (as it sometimes does) they react publicly with disdain, revulsion, and a gut-level desire to make sure the rapist comes to justice. Which would seem to be an excellent thing, and more likely to encourage men to do just what we want: which is when one of his peers crosses a line harrassing another woman--any woman--he says, "Hey. Not cool. Back off her."
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
Even if, by "protect" all they can do is register disapproval when some yobbo starts spouting off in the locker room.
At least with the men I know, this one happens rather infrequently. A lot of times, no one wants to be the Guy With No Sense of Humor. But yes, it IS useful because it helps establish where the line is. I think the best thing I've heard on that one is to mentally replace the "chick" in the joke with your mother, your wife, or your daughter - and see if it's still funny.
I also disagree that "we as a society," by which I mean, the general run of citizenry in the U.S. are quite willing to enforce that rule on EVERY rapist, even the 19-year-old next door.
On this one, yes, we are going to have to disagree. Because a lot of times it is not getting enforced. A lot of times, even when the rape is caught on videotape, the victim is branded a Slut. A Whore. She Must Have Wanted It. She Didn't Say No. And Why Was She Wearing That Short Skirt, Anyway?
DV
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
That's a very good one--have to remember it.
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
But beating the hell out of rapists is not the best way to go about it.
A far more effective way (since most women are raped by someone they KNOW, not the infamous stranger rapist) would be to watch out for the women around them. Something that
And, yes, see Marna above.
DV
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
That struck me as useful.
But yes, watching out for the women around you, is a Very Good Thing. I'm not surprised he does that.
Re: My 2 cents. Will change be forthcoming?
But yes, watching out for the women around you, is a Very Good Thing.
It is one of the reasons that I love him.
DV