FSTDT - Two For One

[desertvixen]

 
 The last one was getting a little long, and I wanted to give this person (I think female) special attention. 

 Judgemental Rape Counselor

I was doing counseling with victims of sexual assault at a secular agency. Yes, I understand that what a woman wears has nothing to do with "traitional" rape (which is a matter of control and/or anger, not sex), but after talking to some of these women, I got to wondering what ever happened to common sense. Young women would go out with guys wearing clothing that left little or nothing to the imagination, have quite a few drinks, go back to the guy's place....then call us to complain that they'd been "assaulted!" Hello? You dress like a streetwalker, both of you get drunk....what did you THINK he was asking you to his apartment for - a Bible study?

While I grant that getting drunk with someone you don't know well is not smart, rape is not a punishment for stupidity.  This person has also obviously not experienced the date that goes Really Bad, and ends up with one party trying to force the other to have sex.

I suggested to the head of the organization that we start a City-wide campaign, along the lines of, "If you want to be treated like a lady, try dressing like one." There IS a campaign with billboards and signs on the sides of buses about waiting until marriage before having sex (from a different agency); I wanted to take it a step further. Guess what? Virtually ALL the (female) counselors had a fit when I suggested such a thing; they claimed they had a "right" to wear anything they want! I tried the tact of, "Doesn't it bother you to have your husbands looking at all these half-naked girls?", to which I was told, "If my husband can't control himself, that's HIS problem!"

Yay for those counselors!  Women should have the right to wear what they feel like wearing, regardless of what others think about it (assuming, of course, that no laws or dress codes are being violated).  Besides, who gets to define "ladylike"? 

And God forbid we expect the men to control themselves.  Really, sometimes when I read these arguments, I need to be reminded why feminists are the ones who hate men because we expect them to, well, act like grownups.

I really couldn't continue on there - they were "helping" girls after the fact, but doing nothing to prevent them being assaulted in the first place - it was like pulling out a band-aid after telling someone it was OK to stick her hand in a chainsaw. (And let me reiterate, because I always get a lot of flak on this - what a woman wears has NOTHING to do with traditional rape; I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Thanks for adding to the feeling of so many victims of date rape that what happened to them wasn't "really rape" because it was someone they knew, or because they had a moment of poor judgment.

No means No.  I sort of feel bad for the guy if she changes her mind at the last second, but blue balls will not kill you.  And I fail to understand why this person thinks "traditional rape" is different from the others - they're all about power.

Fashion Advice

You see, the problem isn't just with "worldly" women. I attended a special program for adult students at a conservative Christian college. I needed a few more electives, so thought a course in Popular Culture would be fun. My final presentation was on fashion, with an emphasis on overly-provocative clothing (including for small children - there's actually a "look" called "prostitot") and the WOMEN (all claiming to be "Christian", mind you) had a fit! Once again I heard the cry of, "We have the RIGHT to wear anything we want!" I tried to explain the effect on men, who are visual creatures, and told them they were causing these men to sin, but they didn't want to listen; I made several enemies that day! Ironically, after the class almost all of the MEN came up to me and thanked me, saying it was nice to see someone understands!

Kind of beats the same drum.  The poor little men, visual creatures.  We're leading them to sin.  It's all our fault.

Basically my take is: if you want to dress modest (for whatever reason), then please feel free.  I know there is at least one person on the f-list who prefers to dress modestly for religious reasons.  She, however, gets what many of these people do not - it is HER choice to dress modestly, and she isn't trying to force her choice on anyone else.

DV

Comments

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

Then why bring it up? The thing is, there are far too many times that "he just couldn't control himself" lets a rapist off the hook. What difference does the reason make?

My comments on that were made specifically in response to the original comment saying all rape, including date rape was about control. I simply disagreed with that. The motivation makes no difference to the rightness or wrongness of the actions. It does make a difference when trying to figure out how to prevent such rapes from happening.

Failing to be able to control yourself is a serious problem in my opinion. It isn't an excuse for anything. Rather the opposite. It is a sign that you are seriously in need of help and maybe shouldn't be allowed loose in the world of adults.

[starwatcher]

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My comments on that were made specifically in response to the original comment saying all rape, including date rape was about control.

I think the problem here may be about differing meanings of "control". You seem to be using it to mean a pre-planned, deliberate taking over of another person's agency and body -- which is a valid definition.

But another, equally valid type of "control" is to use your actions to manipulate another's reactions, and it's not necessarily conscious. EG, watch groups of people walking down the sidewalk, approaching each other. Who maintains an unswerving path, and who steps aside? The first person has, through body language, social expectations, whatever, exercised control over the second person.

In that sense, date rape IS about control -- the rapist is taking the woman's control of her own body away from her. Maybe he didn't plan it, maybe it wasn't his intention, but that's the end result.

Examine these statements, both yours.

date rape . . . is sometimes about the man being too out of control of himself to believe the woman isn't interested.

and

Failing to be able to control yourself is a serious problem in my opinion. It isn't an excuse for anything.

That first one sounds like you're making an excuse for certain "types" of rape. You may not mean it that way, but that's how it comes across. Would you say a man was too out of control to avoid stealing a wallet, or too out of control to avoid robbing a bank?

It does make a difference when trying to figure out how to prevent such rapes from happening.

That is a red flag to many feminists. Rapes don't "happen"; men rape. Men are able to exercise self-control is other aspects of their lives but, all of a sudden, when they think sex is "owed" them, they just "lose control". No matter how you phrase it, it's an excuse and a crock of shit, and we mustn't let them try to pull the wool over our eyes like that.
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[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I think the problem here may be about differing meanings of "control"

I think you might have that right. I think the same goes for the phrase "out of control" too. We seem to be using it differently.

Would you say a man was too out of control to avoid stealing a wallet, or too out of control to avoid robbing a bank?

I wouldn't phrase it quite that way, but I don't think I phrased what I said about men raping women they know because they're out of control quite that way either. I would definitely say that a lot of theft, especially small theft like wallets, happens because the perpetrators are out of control. Lack of impulse control and a need for quick gratification leads to a lot of crime of various sorts. I'm not saying they can't control themselves because some outside force prevented them from behaving. I'm saying they don't have control over their own actions because they don't use their brains to think with or are immature or intoxicated in some way or otherwise malformed in their personalities. The force involved is inside them, not outside. The out of control part is placing blame on them, not excusing them. I hope I'm being more clear here, but given how tired I am now, maybe not.

Men are able to exercise self-control is other aspects of their lives but, all of a sudden, when they think sex is "owed" them, they just "lose control".

But see, I don't think that all rapes have to do with men thinking sex is owed to them and that's not quite the kind of loss of control I was talking about. I was talking more about "men" who haven't learned the adult ability to stop and think about what they're doing and act responsibly. I don't think the men in question actually do control themselves properly in all other aspects of their lives. Losing control when it comes to having sex has much worse results than losing control when it comes to buying stuff or driving fast or whatever other things they might let themselves go over. Children often have that kind of lack of self-control. Adults shouldn't be lacking that way, but some are. Some people are adults in age but not in their behavior. How they act where sex is concerned is an extension of how they act about other things. They aren't suddenly losing control. They lack control overall. Women aren't immune to that problem either even though the results for them aren't usually rape.