FSTDT - Two For One

[desertvixen]

 
 The last one was getting a little long, and I wanted to give this person (I think female) special attention. 

 Judgemental Rape Counselor

I was doing counseling with victims of sexual assault at a secular agency. Yes, I understand that what a woman wears has nothing to do with "traitional" rape (which is a matter of control and/or anger, not sex), but after talking to some of these women, I got to wondering what ever happened to common sense. Young women would go out with guys wearing clothing that left little or nothing to the imagination, have quite a few drinks, go back to the guy's place....then call us to complain that they'd been "assaulted!" Hello? You dress like a streetwalker, both of you get drunk....what did you THINK he was asking you to his apartment for - a Bible study?

While I grant that getting drunk with someone you don't know well is not smart, rape is not a punishment for stupidity.  This person has also obviously not experienced the date that goes Really Bad, and ends up with one party trying to force the other to have sex.

I suggested to the head of the organization that we start a City-wide campaign, along the lines of, "If you want to be treated like a lady, try dressing like one." There IS a campaign with billboards and signs on the sides of buses about waiting until marriage before having sex (from a different agency); I wanted to take it a step further. Guess what? Virtually ALL the (female) counselors had a fit when I suggested such a thing; they claimed they had a "right" to wear anything they want! I tried the tact of, "Doesn't it bother you to have your husbands looking at all these half-naked girls?", to which I was told, "If my husband can't control himself, that's HIS problem!"

Yay for those counselors!  Women should have the right to wear what they feel like wearing, regardless of what others think about it (assuming, of course, that no laws or dress codes are being violated).  Besides, who gets to define "ladylike"? 

And God forbid we expect the men to control themselves.  Really, sometimes when I read these arguments, I need to be reminded why feminists are the ones who hate men because we expect them to, well, act like grownups.

I really couldn't continue on there - they were "helping" girls after the fact, but doing nothing to prevent them being assaulted in the first place - it was like pulling out a band-aid after telling someone it was OK to stick her hand in a chainsaw. (And let me reiterate, because I always get a lot of flak on this - what a woman wears has NOTHING to do with traditional rape; I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Thanks for adding to the feeling of so many victims of date rape that what happened to them wasn't "really rape" because it was someone they knew, or because they had a moment of poor judgment.

No means No.  I sort of feel bad for the guy if she changes her mind at the last second, but blue balls will not kill you.  And I fail to understand why this person thinks "traditional rape" is different from the others - they're all about power.

Fashion Advice

You see, the problem isn't just with "worldly" women. I attended a special program for adult students at a conservative Christian college. I needed a few more electives, so thought a course in Popular Culture would be fun. My final presentation was on fashion, with an emphasis on overly-provocative clothing (including for small children - there's actually a "look" called "prostitot") and the WOMEN (all claiming to be "Christian", mind you) had a fit! Once again I heard the cry of, "We have the RIGHT to wear anything we want!" I tried to explain the effect on men, who are visual creatures, and told them they were causing these men to sin, but they didn't want to listen; I made several enemies that day! Ironically, after the class almost all of the MEN came up to me and thanked me, saying it was nice to see someone understands!

Kind of beats the same drum.  The poor little men, visual creatures.  We're leading them to sin.  It's all our fault.

Basically my take is: if you want to dress modest (for whatever reason), then please feel free.  I know there is at least one person on the f-list who prefers to dress modestly for religious reasons.  She, however, gets what many of these people do not - it is HER choice to dress modestly, and she isn't trying to force her choice on anyone else.

DV

Comments

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

I was reading some of the "modesty survey" stuff, and some of the answers on the one where they asked the guys to speak about questions the girls submitted were scary.

Like the ones who worried about THEM seeing their SISTERS dressed immodestly. In their homes. Not, worried about other non-related men seeing, but them.

There's also the whole mindset of "women wear clothes for men" that really irritates me. Yes, I keep other people's reactions in mind when I dress. I don't like to leave my apartment when I have my way-comfy lounging pants and t-shirt, because they're not really appropriate for random people. I give my audience thought, but I don't give them a vote.

Unfortunately, there will never be a lack of women who give men permission to be assholes, for various reasons. Please see Phyllis Schlafly, Ann Coulter, etc...

DV

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

The endless appeal of the idea that if you toss some OTHER woman to the wolves you'll be left alone ... yeah.

[lexica510.livejournal.com]

There was a creepy letter (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/dailycols/5831936.html) to Miss Manners (of all people) recently. A guy wrote in because he didn't like the idea of his wife sharing a hotel room with another man when she went to another city to run a marathon.

Which might be a reasonable enough concern, except the "other man" is his wife's 22-year-old nephew, who would also be sharing the room with his mother (the wife's sister) and his sister (the wife's niece).

Hurray for Miss Manners, whose response included

…you have given Miss Manners an unpleasant time of it, trying to think what you imagine could be improper.

It can't be what the neighbors will think, because they will be in a hotel with transient neighbors. And — please! — it is surely not that you think your nephew might be overcome with incestuous lust for his aunt, despite the presence of his mother and sister, or that your hitherto blameless wife will betray you and your children because of the proximity of her nephew, not to mention her sister and her niece.

So why don't we both stop thinking along these lines and hope that she wins the marathon?

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I give my audience thought, but I don't give them a vote.

I think this is exactly the right attitude.